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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2006 22:57:54 GMT
Sword fighting is a contact sport. While skill is a greater factor, strength added to skill will yield even better results. You will notice that all modern athletes today train with weights. Even in baseball, when it comes to hitting the ball with the bat, strength plays a significant factor. We can recall the recent Barry Bonds steroid controversy to see how important strength is. I have a webpage that will give you the basics to strength training. you can view it here: mysite.verizon.net/tsafa1/workout.htm
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2006 21:14:34 GMT
I sortof disagree.
While strength is important, training with weights is not the best way to go about it(at least as far as sword training goes).
Weight training teaches muscles to work in isolation, builds overall tension of the muscles, and stresses joints pretty bad. It teaches the muscles to only work in the dimension the machine allows, or the one the particular exercise entails. I don't find weight training essential for strength at all. For example, most olympic gymnasts don't train at all with weights, yet they are among the strongest people in the world. Also look at swimmers, while many do weight train, many do not, and those that do not are not at any disadvantage compared to those that do - and their joints will last longer(I know this for a fact as I swam varsity on my high-school swim team and never weight trained).
The kind of strength I emphasize in my training is expansive(whereas weight-training builds contractive muscle power). Using muscles together to generate force will always be superior to muscles in isolation.
Also, if one has the attitude of using muscle to overcome an adversary in a fight(with or without swords), then there will always be someone who knows enough to not let themselves be muscled around. I'm quite a bit stronger than many guys that i've sparred with, and even wrestled with who've taken the trash out with me- It's humbling for a scrawny guy half one's size to take him out without exerting much effort.
The body is a machine, and it's designed to work a certain way. In the way that it works it works marvelously. Take it outside of working that way and it's very weak, and very fragile, no matter how strong it is. (for example, when standing, if your knees are turned out and point the same direction as your feet, it's a very stable and strong base- capable of supporting several hundred pounds. Torque the knee either in or out and all of a sudden it only takes a little force to destroy that same knee.
Lastly, how much force a body can exert is actually a difference between the maximum tension it's muscles can produce, and how much tension is working against it. If I throw a punch, it's a mixture of my deltoid(shoulder), pectoralis major(chest), and tricep(back of the arm) that causes my arm to extend. If i'm smart, it'll also generate a good deal from my deep abdominals and legs(core and center). But if my back, biceps, and legs are tense, that tenseness subtracts from the positive expansive force in that punch. If I train my muscles to be as tense as possible while working(as is commonly done with weight training and maxing out lifts), then I end up carrying that tenseness around with me all the time, and it works against me.
Long, relaxed muscles are ideal for martial arts of all varieties, and training relaxation is difficult, but very rewarding. Yoga is a very good way to go about it. It's very interesting to note that stretching, and slow deep breathing(not necessarily yoga) strengthen the connective tissues of the joints and muscles as well, increasing how much force they can take, as well as helping the body relax. This results in a very fluid and relaxed body.
Being relaxed is also key to quick reactions - one doesn't have to disengage any muscles to free up the body to move - all one has to do is move.
Anyway, i'm not an expert or anything, just some 19 year old trying to be a martial artist. But I've taken anatomy classes, as well as yoga; and i've wrestled, boxed, and studied several martial arts a great deal. I've always been interested in swords in general(and knights and medieval combat in particular), and I read a whole heck of a lot. This is just my take on weight training.
I'm not trying to say that weight training is all bad. I'm just trying to say that(for me, and a few others I train with) it's not the best. It can still be very helpful and healthy(see Bruce Lee)- but it's very easy to do it poorly, and doing anything poorly is no good.
(as one final note, I notice that you call sword fighting a 'contact sport'. I train it as a martial art - completely different purpose in the end. This may have a factor on how I view training for it)
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Post by rammstein on Dec 5, 2006 22:04:13 GMT
I'm afraid I'm going to agree with Adamsharp here. Weight Training may teach strength, but it doesn't teach you the skill and reactions needed in order to be a great fighter. Brute strength, in my opinion, is one of the least important aspects of almost any sport (albiet, weight lifting, wrestling, football etc.) Strength without skill leads to quick defeat, because anyone can try to clobber a person to death. It takes speed, agility, and endurance, and most of all, discipline to emerge victorious. Weight lifting, as adam said, only teaches your muscles to move in isolation. The point of swordfighting is to be able to react, not stay rigid as a stone. Adam, your points about swimming and gymnastics are very true. I swim and I am am 'decently' strong and my friend, who's a gymnist can out muscle about anyone I know. He's about half my height and looks like quite a weak person. But I know for a fact that his strength does not come from lifting heavy object. This type of strength comes from flexiblility and endurance, in my opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2006 3:47:45 GMT
As an avid medieval sword practitioner and SCA combatant I have to agree with Tsafa on the benefits of weight training. I fence and fight heavy SCA combat as well as do practice cutting. I am not saying you want to get as big as Arnold, but the strength training combined with cardio (like running) has greatly enhanced my ability on the field far above those who don't at the same level of combat training. You can't just lift weights and then expect to be able to fight. You have to lift, run, fight, cut, etc. Sword fighting is a physical activity and a good combination of strength, speed, stamina, and skill are required to win. Fighting - I am the one on your right with the Gyphon on my shield--watch closely and you will see my sword hit his back near the very end - it happens very fast! media.putfile.com/Thomas2Me cutting - the top two videos www.swordsofvalor.com/Generation2.html
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2006 4:48:47 GMT
If done properly, I'm sure a lot of people can benefit from weight training, I just choose not to, for the reasons I listed above.
I swim, practice martial arts, do a good deal of yoga(for both flexibility, relaxation, and also power yoga for strength), as well as Pilades for additional abdominal strength/tone.
I also do a number of workouts of my own, for example, instead of just normal pushups, I set a timer and do as many pushups as I can in 30 seconds, then rest for 30 seconds. Then I repeat with my hands very close together, then rest for another 30 seconds. Then I repeat again with my arms very wide. Then I rest for 30 seconds and do as many clap-pushups as I can in 30 seconds. Then I rest for 1-2 minutes, and do 10 pushups, taking 10 seconds going down, and 10 more extending back up. I do pushups this way as it trains both fast twitch and slow twitch muscle fibers, and the clap-pushups develop explosive power. I like pushups over the bench press as it also works the core to maintain good pushup posture, and a byproduct of doing the pushups as fast as I can is that it trains the muscles that are counter-productive to doing pushups to be relaxed whilst the other muscles are working. I have similar routines that work other major muscles groups as well. I usually do this twice a day, at least 3 times a week, with good stretching both before and after the workout. I stretch every morning and evening as well, and usually other times during the day(before and after other workouts as well, like swim or martial arts).
This coupled with a good diet has caused me to be in excellent physical condition(5'7, 160 lbs, 10-11% body fat), and for me, lifting weights would only hinder me.
So what I think I mean is: Strength is indeed important, but I believe there are better and healthier ways to develop it than lifting weights.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2006 6:56:39 GMT
This is awesome, 2 for and 2 against, let the debate begin, lol.
My position is that in any fighting style, skill comes first. That said... among equaly skilled opponents, the stronger man will usualy will. I have seen that weight lifting is the most efficent way to build strength. You can still do streches and yoga to maintain flexibility. Streching before and after is highly recommended.
I have noticed when I do live steel which is more controlled, stength is less of an issue. The training is all blade work. When I do SCA, which is killing power, killing speed (hence more combat realistic), strength is more of an issue. Mind you I can be beaten by smaller more skilled opponets. I think that stength would be even more of an advantage if grappeling was allowed.
I did some Greco Roman wresteling in highschool, now that is all grappeling. It becomes very clear why they divided people up into weight classes. Size matters, strength matters.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2006 13:24:09 GMT
Adamsharp, you have an excellent workout routine and are developing strength through various exercises. You are right, weight training if done for size lots of weight with a few reps would develop the muscle you are not looking for. If you were to do high rep workouts with weights it would increase your stamina and strength, but with your current workout it is not necessary.
The weights are for the people who don't do anything all week and then get up on Sunday and decide they are going to fighter practice.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2006 17:10:46 GMT
I'm glad we could be civil in this conversation...too many times in the past discussions like this have turned into complete flame wars...
While strength does play a large role in grappling, I think It's unfair to say that size and strength are all that matters in wrestling. Certain styles of wrestling training emphasize strength more than others, and at beginner to intermediate levels, it would appear that strength and size are indeed key; all that said however, I believe that when grappling at the sword, strength plays a much smaller role than in other forms of grappling.
Aikido(one of my favorite martial arts) derives greatly from a lot of sword techniques, and in the style I practice(Iwama Ryu), there is a very strong connection between armed and unarmed technique - in fact, most(if not all) techniques can be done with either combatant either having or not having a weapon(weapons are incidental). My aikido training has helped my sword training greatly, particularly in the bind and while grappling. Ironically, european longsword manuals that depict combatants grappling at the sword often include techniques very similar to aikido.
With that I mean to say, as aikido techniques are trained to be most efficient and effective when as little muscle force is used, and european grappling at the sword is related(in a sense) to aikido, that having a lot of muscle, against an opponent with a decent amount of training, wouldn't offer a huge advantage. Angles of entry, being grounded, and unbalancing an opponent are key. In fact, I've found that while training, those that resist with the most muscle force are those that the techniques work best against. They fall the hardest, and tend to hurt themselves more when they do get hurt.
My 2 cents on grappling during a swordfight.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2006 18:20:40 GMT
Adamsharp, you did bring out a great point I agree with. That orental and Western fighting systems have much more in common then is normaly given credit. All people have two arms, two legs, a head and torso... similar weapons will yeild simmilar techinques. One of the things I like about SCA fighting is that you do have guys fighting with oriental weapons in orental styles against western styles. I can not understand why so many oriental shools refuse to fight against other fighting styles.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2006 19:46:26 GMT
I think it's a matter of context.
I put in my years of SCA combat, and can vouch for the fact that upper body strength is an absolute requirement in getting in good blows, particularly if your opponent is in a solid suit of armour and disinclined to acknowledge hits.
On the other hand, my wife has extremely limited upper body strength, but is perfectly dangerous with a fencing foil in her hand.
So I think that if someone is having a problem with a weapon, heading for the weight room is one approach. If you are using a sword because you do re-enactments of 14th century combat, maybe it is the best approach. For other people, it probably means that you have picked a weapon which fits neither any modern day self defence need or your physique.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2006 6:17:36 GMT
I fight in the SCA, have a black belt in kyokushin karate and one in kung fu and I lift weights. Lifting weights have kept me strong, flexible and healthy throughout the years, which included playing NFL rules American football, lots of soccer, rubby, softball, track and field and an 8 year stint in the US Army. Done yoga, love to swim but the common thread in this active life has been weight training. If you know what you are doing and educate yourself about strength training for athletics rather than body building, it will not slow you down, make you stiff or any of the other crapola that gets bandied about. Being strong has been a great help in SCA combat in particular. I can bear the weight of armor much longer than many others, I can move my opponents off of me when I need to, power through defenses when necessary and throw shots with more authority and less stress on my joints.
Done right weight training is very beneficial. Do it wrong, not so much.
audax
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2006 14:45:32 GMT
I practice aikido as well, Adam made some excellent points. In aikido we are taught that if you are using muscle you're not doing it right. That being said I still work out with weights at the gym (as well as a lot of cardio), more for fitness than for any benifit in martial arts. The more muscle you have the more fat you burn even when you aren't exercising or so the latest theories go.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2006 19:35:57 GMT
The body is capable of working in all three dimensions. Training with free weights helps the body more than it hinders it - even in the martial arts. I agree with Adam that working out on a machine is bad for the body, even perverse. You're taking something that flourishes when it moves freely and setting a track around it so that it can only move a certain way.
When you work out with free weights it takes concentration and skill. You have to force your muscles to keep the weights in alignment (such as with bicep curls) so that your develop the muscle correctly. This works the muscle out in all three dimensions. On a machine the mind doesn't have to worry about keeping the weight in alignment.
Also, the goal of working out with weights, for a martial artist at least, is not to gain strength. No, it is to increase flexibilty and range of motion. It is also to help maintain the muscle strength and memory and to increase muscle speed.
I have worked out with free weights for most of my life. I am not big and bulky, like a body builder. Instead I choose to remain fit and toned. I understand what you guys are saying because we learn the same thing in the Bujinkan. Using mucscular strength is wrong. It tires you out and you don't get as much of an impact as you do using your whole body. Instead we focus on using the shape our body is currently in to get the maximum effect out of it. If I am in a walking stance with my left foot forward and my right foot back then my torso is already perfectly wound up for a powerful strike. All I have to do is put my arm straight out infront of me and relax my muscles. My body will return to it's normal standing posture and my fist will go through my target the power generated from the unwinding muscles.
However, I still choose to weight train. I would suggest it to anyone. It is true that working out trains your muscles in isolation, but I am not training them to work in isolation in the real world, only when I work out. This is another bonus because as I focus on each muscle individually I learn more about it and gain better and better control over it. I now have very fine control over almost every voluntary muscle in my body and because of this I can move them all independantly of one another. This has granted me greater control over my body as a whole and thus, I know which muscles to use in a punch. Instead of relaxing as a whole I know which ones to relax to release the tension in the form of power while still maintaining my balance. Therefore, I am no longer using my muscles to generate power in the usual sense. All because of weight training.
As for long relaxed muscles - weight training makes muscles bulky if you preform it wrong. Using a full range of motion in your work out will make your muscles shallow and long. You can stretch them further by swimming. I no longer swim, but I used to after all my workouts.
I am not saying weight training is for everyone, but neglecting it is not recommended for a serious competitor, such as myself. Even Bruce Lee, Jet Li, Jackie Chan, and Chuck Norris (whom I loathe) all weight train. Surely some of the greatest martial artists of our time (not CN) are onto something? The only prominent martial artist I can think of who does not weight train would be Hatsumi-sensei.
My thoughts anyway.
L.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2006 20:50:13 GMT
How does lifting weights improve flexibility?
In the real world, when confronted with conflict, we fall back on what we know. If some guy attacked me on the street and i had to defend myself, I'm not gonna try something that saw some other guy do, or something I thought through, or experimented with. I'm not gonna think to myself "well, I've developed really strong individual muscles, let's use them all at once now". I'm gonna do what I know works, and I'm gonna move how I've trained to move. Thinking about my body right now, Yes I have fine muscle control and can isolate almost every muscle I can think of(taking ballet helped with that as well as the other stuff). In a conflict, I'm not gonna take that time to think, i'm going to act. My muscles will move how they've been trained to move.
What you say about being able to isolate and therefore use combinations of isolations to not waste effort of have tension is true, but I think that training a tricep to work alone teaches a tricep to work alone. It doesn't teach a tricep to work with a deltoid, a pectoralis major, a latissimus dorsi, rectus abdominus, transversus abdominus, oblique, quadricep, gastrocnemius and even the fine rotator cuffs in my thigh which are all used to generate power for a strike. It takes a certain amount of coordination to do that which can only be learned by doing it, repeatedly and often. Coordination is more important than brute strength.
It's even more astounding when grappling is involved. I can get really really strong by doing some bicep curls, but if I'm excited and in the heat of a wrestling match against someone and we clinch nice and close, and I try to hold it with my biceps alone? bad idea.
In a nutshell, practice doesn't necessarily make perfect, but it does make permanent.
you're right, Bruce Lee did weight train. But he didn't get into that until years after he learned to fight, and learned and developed several martial arts.
What do you have against Chuck Norris?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2006 20:56:05 GMT
How does lifting weights improve flexibility? In the real world, when confronted with conflict, we fall back on what we know. If some guy attacked me on the street and i had to defend myself, I'm not gonna try something that saw some other guy do, or something I thought through, or experimented with. I'm not gonna think to myself "well, I've developed really strong individual muscles, let's use them all at once now". I'm gonna do what I know works, and I'm gonna move how I've trained to move. Thinking about my body right now, Yes I have fine muscle control and can isolate almost every muscle I can think of(taking ballet helped with that as well as the other stuff). In a conflict, I'm not gonna take that time to think, i'm going to act. My muscles will move how they've been trained to move. What you say about being able to isolate and therefore use combinations of isolations to not waste effort of have tension is true, but I think that training a tricep to work alone teaches a tricep to work alone. It doesn't teach a tricep to work with a deltoid, a pectoralis major, a latissimus dorsi, rectus abdominus, transversus abdominus, oblique, quadricep, gastrocnemius and even the fine rotator cuffs in my thigh which are all used to generate power for a strike. It takes a certain amount of coordination to do that which can only be learned by doing it, repeatedly and often. Coordination is more important than brute strength. It's even more astounding when grappling is involved. I can get really really strong by doing some bicep curls, but if I'm excited and in the heat of a wrestling match against someone and we clinch nice and close, and I try to hold it with my biceps alone? bad idea. In a nutshell, practice doesn't necessarily make perfect, but it does make permanent. you're right, Bruce Lee did weight train. But he didn't get into that until years after he learned to fight, and learned and developed several martial arts. What do you have against Chuck Norris? Well to each his own. I train in Bujinkan and when in a confrontation I fight the way I trained in Bujinkan, as a whole. I don't try to do a bicep curl when some comes at me with a knife. I don't try to do bench presses when I'm in a headlock. On muscle control: I can control my muscles individually, but I only do this when I work out and when I am in class to help me achieve the desired end result of working together. Once I have the technique down it becomes ingrained in my memory as an instinct and no longer requires thought. This is the essential difference we're both driving at. Don't get me started on Chuck Norris. L.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2006 22:02:09 GMT
I also do rapier fencing. This is almost completly non contact. Non of the other fencers in my group except one girl lift weights. The girl, who is lean and mean, says wightlifting definetly makes her more competive against the men then before she was training with weights. For myself, I was lifting weights long before I ever picked up a sword. Naturaly when I first started fencing I tied to muscle people blades aside and I would always get tagged. I have since learned to restrain my strength when fencing rapier. However, now that I am more experiaced... there are moments that I pull that old rabbit out of my hat. Occasionaly I will lock a blade with my qillions or catch it with my dagger and move it out of the way. Powerplays are one of many options I can use. Strength in rapier fencing used sporadicaly when not anticipated is just as good as any other move used sporadicly when not anticipated. To give another example, in my group, I am the only fencer that can lunge, re-double (that means lunge again from the alreadu lunged position so you are totaly steached out), and then lunge again or stand up from that possition. To do something like that effectivly, you have to be squating almost twice your bodyweight. Non of the other fencerscan get out of that position. When you re-double you are basicly betting it all on that one move because you will not be able to get out in time and are very vulnerable. Now my whole fencing statagy does not revolve around this, but this is one option I have that other people do not.
One important point I would like to come back to is, just because you have a strength advantage does not mean you have to use that strength advantage. It is just one additional option for you... and more options are better then less options. Also, with regard to flexibility, you can see that I must be fairly flexible if I am lunging and then strechingout in further from that and getting up.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2006 23:45:07 GMT
I also do rapier fencing. This is almost completly non contact. Non of the other fencers in my group except one girl lift weights. The girl, who is lean and mean, says wightlifting definetly makes her more competive against the men then before she was training with weights. For myself, I was lifting weights long before I ever picked up a sword. Naturaly when I first started fencing I tied to muscle people blades aside and I would always get tagged. I have since learned to restrain my strength when fencing rapier. However, now that I am more experiaced... there are moments that I pull that old rabbit out of my hat. Occasionaly I will lock a blade with my qillions or catch it with my dagger and move it out of the way. Powerplays are one of many options I can use. Strength in rapier fencing used sporadicaly when not anticipated is just as good as any other move used sporadicly when not anticipated. To give another example, in my group, I am the only fencer that can lunge, re-double (that means lunge again from the alreadu lunged position so you are totaly steached out), and then lunge again or stand up from that possition. To do something like that effectivly, you have to be squating almost twice your bodyweight. Non of the other fencerscan get out of that position. When you re-double you are basicly betting it all on that one move because you will not be able to get out in time and are very vulnerable. Now my whole fencing statagy does not revolve around this, but this is one option I have that other people do not. One important point I would like to come back to is, just because you have a strength advantage does not mean you have to use that strength advantage. It is just one additional option for you... and more options are better then less options. Also, with regard to flexibility, you can see that I must be fairly flexible if I am lunging and then strechingout in further from that and getting up. Kudos! Well spoken! L.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2006 7:23:58 GMT
Just to give another example, I always use to fence aggresivly, constanlty pressing the attack. Over time my fencing teacher showed me how that made me predictable and easier for another skilled fencer to beat. He drilled me in retreating as a means of drawing in someone. This has made me far more unpredictable and effective. Likewise some of the people in my group are very passive, he trains them to occasionaly press with aggressive attacks. The key here is to be unpredictable.
The same hold true for fighting with strength. You want to be able to fight with both strength and weakness. To quote Licheneur, "fight stength with weakness and weakness with strength". You don't want to fight strength with strength nor weakness with weakness. You also don't want to fight strong all the time or weak all the time. Stay unpredictable.
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Post by rammstein on Dec 10, 2006 17:06:13 GMT
hm...I tend to be a bully in fencing but I do this in bursts. I'll be calm and then all of a sudden I'll luanch into attacking. However, I usually get my point just beause the people I fight against are not used to lefties. I really don't have that much skill.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2006 5:11:06 GMT
The problem that I found with bull charging in fencing is that it often results in double kills. Dead people don't get any prizes in duels
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