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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2010 3:43:43 GMT
While pondering ways to re-mount my sabre in a traditional cruciform hilt, I was given the following suggestion:
Slide a hollow threaded rod several inches onto the tang, weld it there, and thread on the pommel.
How well would this hold up? Would the hollow threaded rod have sufficient structural integrity as part of a typical wooden core/threaded pommel setup?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2010 4:51:58 GMT
For a wall hanger only, not if you intend to use it to cut with...SanMarc.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2010 10:26:25 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2010 15:04:43 GMT
what's the length of the tang, Ford King? Can you post a picture? We might come up with better suggestions if we had more info.
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Post by Dan Davis on Apr 9, 2010 19:24:28 GMT
This is a BAD idea; plain and simple. I do not know who suggested this but it is a BAD idea.
Welding threaded rod onto a tang is risky at best and takes a lot of welding expertise to get it right; hollow threaded rod is simply a fancy way to commit suicide (or possibly murder).
Did I mention this is a BAD idea?
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Post by kidcasanova on Apr 9, 2010 21:52:38 GMT
The way I read it wasn't that he was welding a piece of threaded rod to extend the tang, he's sliding the threaded bit over the tang only so that he wouldn't have to cut threads into the tang by hand. Could be wrong, but hey.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2010 0:54:14 GMT
The way I read it wasn't that he was welding a piece of threaded rod to extend the tang, he's sliding the threaded bit over the tang only so that he wouldn't have to cut threads into the tang by hand. Could be wrong, but hey. That is indeed what I'm doing. Is this somehow more stable? The rod would slide over several inches of tang and be welded at the top. It's essentially the opposite of the technique Brenno mentions in chuckinohio's link; rather than the rod being inserted into the tang, though, the tang is inserted into the rod. EDIT: For further clarification, the rod isn't hollow all the way down. I would use a lathe to hollow it just enough to slide it over the tang, at which point it would be welded on all the way around at the top. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2010 3:12:58 GMT
Seems that if you have the means to lathe-cut a hollow into the threaded rod (no easy piece of work, I'm thinking), you certainly must be able to just cut threads into the tang itself? Simpler and offering more integrity to the intended joining.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2010 4:08:55 GMT
There are two reasons why that wouldn't work:
-I need to lengthen the tang, so just threading what I already have would be insufficient.
-The tang isn't a regular cylinder, so even if I had the means to cut threads onto it I wouldn't be able to thread anything onto it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2010 5:56:45 GMT
These seems overcomplicated an idea. Lengthening a tang is tricky, at best. If I HAD to do it, I'd cut a several-inch-long slot into the tang, lay a SOLID rod into the slot, weld around, and grind the slot back into non-existence.  Excuse the shoddiness and haste. This isn't preferable, but it's about the best you can do short of forge-welding, AFAIK. |
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Apr 10, 2010 6:20:12 GMT
Yeah you're spot on steckfretman
I did discuss this here: /index.cgi?board=fable&action=display&thread=12237
The only thing I'd add here is that normalising and tempering of the HC steel is necessary to make sure that it hasn't gone hard and brittle air cooling off the weld. And that 1" of inset is plenty.
The V shape of the round rod against the square tang allows the weld to sink right in and stay put when the tang is reground, so you aren't grinding off the weld.
And don't use an arc welder. It's too savage and dirty. Best to set up the parts and take it to a pro to MIG or TIG weld it. Exhaust shops are usually handy.
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Post by Dan Davis on Apr 10, 2010 9:56:11 GMT
Yes, that is a MUCH better way to do this, and I would draw back the weld area twice.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2010 15:48:00 GMT
why use heat at all? You can make just as strong a bond mechanically, no welding needed, and you can use a grade 8 bolt and not mess up the HT of the bolt with welding. You only need about 2" of tang and can make your tang as long as you want.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2010 10:28:45 GMT
why use heat at all? You can make just as strong a bond mechanically, no welding needed, and you can use a grade 8 bolt and not mess up the HT of the bolt with welding. You only need about 2" of tang and can make your tang as long as you want. Is this what you mean?  Again, I apologize for the lack of quality. I'm on a laptop with a nub-mouse. Also, the spacebar tends not to work right. This post took me a quite a while... I've seen it on a few custom knives, and the Cold Steel Laredo uses a comparable method (though the bold is replaced by steelcable). Scaling it up may not work due to the increased side-to-side stress levels within the grip itself. I'm not entirely sure how well it would deal with the type of stress a sword sees, but I suppose it's open to experimentation. I think it would react similar to what I believe is called "coke bottle" style knife handles, where a short stick-tang is inserted into an Aluminum blank. The Aluminum makes up the remainder of a faux full tang, allowing slab grips on a tang that would otherwise not be able to use them. It seems to work in the case of knives, but at sword-length, the side-to-side stress (as oppose to edge-to-spine) might cause the tang's tip to crack the grip. I suppose there's a lot of variables. For those without a minimal background in hardware, a grade 8 bolt has six lines on the top of the head. I also believe all hex-drive bolts are grade 8. Three lines indicate a grade 5. No lines is a grade 1. Grade 8 is the strongest, highest quality. At least, the best commonly available... I've never heard of a grade above 8... |
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Apr 11, 2010 10:58:55 GMT
I dont know if screwing the rod into the tang is suitable? I havent seen it done. I thought Sam was talking about this sort of thing. Cutting your slot, filing it out to a T shape which will comfortably hold a bolt head. The bolt head can be ground down flat to fit through the grip and so forth. A little silver solder (Tin Silver - not tin lead preferably) could be used to hold it in place while you assemble your bits. Like this:  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2010 11:29:35 GMT
Hmm. I suppose either COULD work. Though a large part of my brain is convinced welding is a better option mostly because if the tang is being lengthened, then I assume it's to make room for a a second hand. This puts a new stress in the grip that wouldn't have been present in its 1-handed form. The spot between the hands becomes a pivot point, seeing a lot of stress from sudden changes in direction...
Just thinking out loud. It might not be as much stress as I'm imagining... I'd still want to put something like this through a destruction test to quantify its point of failure in comparison to other types of tangs...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2010 16:48:14 GMT
I dont know if screwing the rod into the tang is suitable? I havent seen it done. I thought Sam was talking about this sort of thing. Cutting your slot, filing it out to a T shape which will comfortably hold a bolt head. The bolt head can be ground down flat to fit through the grip and so forth. A little silver solder (Tin Silver - not tin lead preferably) could be used to hold it in place while you assemble your bits. Like this: That is exactly what I was talking about. Don't even need to solder it for it to be a complete "takedown". On a sword the side load might be a problem, composite handle core however would be able to handle it, if it's leather wrapped over it doesn't matter. Your side to side fit would need to be perfect also, but this would be fairly easy however if your parent tang is fairly short you could just core drill your wood with the appropriate size hole, then mill or chisel the short oval hole. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2010 20:38:10 GMT
Good ideas, but my tang is quite narrow, being 1/2" at the top. Here's a photo; the tang has since been hammered straight.  As I see it, my best bet is to weld something over the existing tang; I could proceed with the partially hollow threaded rod as planned, or I could weld the tang into an extension in the same way Brenno and Steckfretman recommend welding a rod into the tang:  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2010 20:50:10 GMT
You could get away with the Tom Maringer style swivel tang, might be a bit beyond basic shop practice.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2010 22:29:51 GMT
Lord Fusor a tang on!
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Things have changed!