British 1908 WE and CS vs The REAL Thing
Feb 28, 2010 17:53:00 GMT
Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2010 17:53:00 GMT
Grand Finale: The BR 1908 Cav Sword: Weaponedge and Cold Steel vs The Real Thing
Introduction: This is the last in a series of articles resulting from my purchase of eight Weaponedge Swords last year. As previously mentioned I had asked for both Weaponedge’s British 1908 Enlisted and the 1912 Officer Cavalry Swords in field brown. The 1912 didn’t make it. It was substituted with a very likeable Austrian Hussars Saber.
One of my early acquisitions was a group of Cold Steel swords which included their Indian Army version IP1908 . The IP’08 was an original British design concept for colonial troops. Cold Steel claims this to be from the Indian Army source manufacturer, so this should be representative of the originals.
With two replica swords I was dying to find out how well they stacked up to original British Issue. That lead down the road to acquiring a representative enlisted 1908 and officer 1912 version of this last pattern sword of the British Cavalry Corps.
So rather than just make some comments on the Weaponedge Sword you are also going to get feedback on Cold Steel’s 1908 and a look at some gorgeous shots ( I’m not kissin butt to the photographer, these are just purtee swords) of all of them in this replica vs historic sword shootout.
To simplify reference to the four swords they will be short coded thusly: The Weaponedge as WE’08, the Cold Steel as CS’08, the British P1908 as P’08, and the British Officer P1912 as P’12.
The P’12 really doesn’t have any bearing in comparing 1908 swords. It’s eye candy. It’s significantly modified from the P’08 with differences of blade and hilt. It is an admirable looking embellishment made to distinguish officers.
Overview
One has to remember that there are significant differences in the in swords carried into combat by rank and file. In the British Army the difference could be dramatic. The enlisted cavalry saber of the British Army was spare of furniture and since 1853 had remained a relatively beefy cutter.
The fate of the British Sword was in doubt at the end of the 19th Century. Boer War experience actually militated many officers into pushing to return cavalry to a purely mounted infantry role. A doctrinal declaration was even made by the Army by 1900 that the rifle and bayonet was the primary weapon of the cavalry. Die hards salvaged the sword as a shock weapon of opportunity.
It took seven years of experimentation to produce a weapon that passed committee and field tests. The final British solution to this debate resolved itself with an extreme solution that practically abandoned the cut in favor of a weapon that is practically a resurrection of the rapier. With it’s superior ergonomic handle it might even be considered an ultimate rapier.
Initial Impressions:
Should be no surprise that this weapon looks exactly like the AFA/FIE competition saber, given their similar roots in Hutton and Pecararo. ( A misleading statement. Hutton didn’t approve of the final P1908 sword because it lacked enough blade for cutting. ) Any sense of familiarity is out the window, however, when you pick one of these up and feel the weight of construction. The balance of these swords is excellent but it is achieved with a hand heavy hilt married to a substantial blade.
The hilts stand out not only for their ballistic good looks and hand protecting size but for their tremendously large, ergonomic handles. No question of stuffing your hand in one of these swords.
( Supposedly, but see comments on the WE’08.)
Statistics
Weaponedge Cold Steel British British
WE’08 CS'08 P'08 P’12
Blade Length 34.5 in 34.5 in 34.5 33.5
Handle Length 3.25 in 4.5 in 5 ins 5 ins
Overall Length 41 ins 42 ins 42 ins 41 ins
Blade Width 1in 5/8th in 5/8th in 1 in
Point of Balance 5 ins 3.5 ins 2 ins 2.5 ins
Percussion Point 23.5 ins 24 ins 24 ins 21 ins
Sword Weight 2.2 lbs 2.4lbs 3 lbs 2.6 lbs
Scabbard Weight 1.5 lbs 1.7 lbs 1.8 lbs .7 lb
Components:
The Blades: The blades on all of the 1908’s are standard at 34.5 inches. The 1912 is shorter by an inch and generally broader in its taper. The 1908 blade is “T” shaped and fullered out to about 8 inches from the tip. The thrusting blade is dramatically tapered down to a stiletto sleekness that stands out from the forte of the blade. The P’08 and CS’08 share this refinement, validating the Cold Steel product as a true 1908 version.
The WE’08 blade lacks proper taper and is part to blame for the PoB. Also noted the blade is marked IP’08 ( India Pattern). Sales material does not market this as an India pattern sword.
The Handle: The original P’08 has a rubber handle. The CS and WE swords are plastic. The CS’08 correctly conforms to the “India” standard: the back of the handle is flush instead of enlarged. The WE’08 looks like a P’08 ( even though the blade says its an IP’08). The handle compression down to 3.25 inches invalidates the WE. Many first year 1908s had black rubber handles. But the red-brown are more common. The P’12 is black fish skin with a copper wire wrap.
The Guard: I love bell guards. Unlike basket guards there is freedom to give full play to your wrist when cutting. The P’08 has a very thick plate which is further reinforced with a second cover plate at the blade. The India Pattern looks the same but the guard plate is much lightened. The CS’08 once again is correct. The WE plate has been scaled back and lacks the “dish shaped” finish to the guard.
The Pommel: All the 08’s have large caps that are screw-bolted into place. The P’12 is peened.
The Scabbard: The steel two side ringed scabbard was standard. Encasing these in leather was a popular option for line units. Scabbards and Guards were usually painted for field service in WWI. The green khaki was employed initially, but black is quite common. Haven’t had much nice to say for the WE’08. Their scabbard is correct and nice…
Handling Characteristics: While these swords can be made effective light cutters they’re intended to be thrusting swords. I’d be tempted to say that with their wonderful hilts they are the ultimate rapiers.
The large handles make them comfortable and flexible swords.
Conclusions:
[img src="[http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx115/kelly1863/British%20M1908%20and%20M1912/BritishP1908-12CavSaber030.jpg"]
Pros:
Very effective, flashy design
Superior thrusting sword with great balance and ample handle.
The Cold Steel is a correct IP’08 and great deal.
Cons:
Heavy weights.
Threre is no good British Pattern replica.
Not a first choice for “cutters”
The Bottom Line:
The WE’s really disappoint here. They badly need to redesign what they have marketed. This sword misses the mark in too many ways. I’m glad now that they didn’t ship me the requested 1912. The Graf Hadik is a good sword and a welcome addition to my collection. Can’t really say that for the 1908. It is the biggest disappointment of the 8 swords received.
The Cold Steel is a legitimate IP service sword. It can be had for about $200 from Trueswords or KoA.
The P1908s are available in the $600-900 range. They’d be cheaper if the exchange rate wasn’t so bad. P1912 are a bit tougher to find so they tend to be $700-1000. (You can also buy them new as they are still in service with the British Army.)
Too many photos for this review. You can view more here:
s747.photobucket.com/albums/xx115/kelly1863/British%20M1908%20and%20M1912/
Introduction: This is the last in a series of articles resulting from my purchase of eight Weaponedge Swords last year. As previously mentioned I had asked for both Weaponedge’s British 1908 Enlisted and the 1912 Officer Cavalry Swords in field brown. The 1912 didn’t make it. It was substituted with a very likeable Austrian Hussars Saber.
One of my early acquisitions was a group of Cold Steel swords which included their Indian Army version IP1908 . The IP’08 was an original British design concept for colonial troops. Cold Steel claims this to be from the Indian Army source manufacturer, so this should be representative of the originals.
With two replica swords I was dying to find out how well they stacked up to original British Issue. That lead down the road to acquiring a representative enlisted 1908 and officer 1912 version of this last pattern sword of the British Cavalry Corps.
So rather than just make some comments on the Weaponedge Sword you are also going to get feedback on Cold Steel’s 1908 and a look at some gorgeous shots ( I’m not kissin butt to the photographer, these are just purtee swords) of all of them in this replica vs historic sword shootout.
To simplify reference to the four swords they will be short coded thusly: The Weaponedge as WE’08, the Cold Steel as CS’08, the British P1908 as P’08, and the British Officer P1912 as P’12.
The P’12 really doesn’t have any bearing in comparing 1908 swords. It’s eye candy. It’s significantly modified from the P’08 with differences of blade and hilt. It is an admirable looking embellishment made to distinguish officers.
Overview
One has to remember that there are significant differences in the in swords carried into combat by rank and file. In the British Army the difference could be dramatic. The enlisted cavalry saber of the British Army was spare of furniture and since 1853 had remained a relatively beefy cutter.
The fate of the British Sword was in doubt at the end of the 19th Century. Boer War experience actually militated many officers into pushing to return cavalry to a purely mounted infantry role. A doctrinal declaration was even made by the Army by 1900 that the rifle and bayonet was the primary weapon of the cavalry. Die hards salvaged the sword as a shock weapon of opportunity.
It took seven years of experimentation to produce a weapon that passed committee and field tests. The final British solution to this debate resolved itself with an extreme solution that practically abandoned the cut in favor of a weapon that is practically a resurrection of the rapier. With it’s superior ergonomic handle it might even be considered an ultimate rapier.
Initial Impressions:
Should be no surprise that this weapon looks exactly like the AFA/FIE competition saber, given their similar roots in Hutton and Pecararo. ( A misleading statement. Hutton didn’t approve of the final P1908 sword because it lacked enough blade for cutting. ) Any sense of familiarity is out the window, however, when you pick one of these up and feel the weight of construction. The balance of these swords is excellent but it is achieved with a hand heavy hilt married to a substantial blade.
The hilts stand out not only for their ballistic good looks and hand protecting size but for their tremendously large, ergonomic handles. No question of stuffing your hand in one of these swords.
( Supposedly, but see comments on the WE’08.)
Statistics
Weaponedge Cold Steel British British
WE’08 CS'08 P'08 P’12
Blade Length 34.5 in 34.5 in 34.5 33.5
Handle Length 3.25 in 4.5 in 5 ins 5 ins
Overall Length 41 ins 42 ins 42 ins 41 ins
Blade Width 1in 5/8th in 5/8th in 1 in
Point of Balance 5 ins 3.5 ins 2 ins 2.5 ins
Percussion Point 23.5 ins 24 ins 24 ins 21 ins
Sword Weight 2.2 lbs 2.4lbs 3 lbs 2.6 lbs
Scabbard Weight 1.5 lbs 1.7 lbs 1.8 lbs .7 lb
Components:
The Blades: The blades on all of the 1908’s are standard at 34.5 inches. The 1912 is shorter by an inch and generally broader in its taper. The 1908 blade is “T” shaped and fullered out to about 8 inches from the tip. The thrusting blade is dramatically tapered down to a stiletto sleekness that stands out from the forte of the blade. The P’08 and CS’08 share this refinement, validating the Cold Steel product as a true 1908 version.
The WE’08 blade lacks proper taper and is part to blame for the PoB. Also noted the blade is marked IP’08 ( India Pattern). Sales material does not market this as an India pattern sword.
The Handle: The original P’08 has a rubber handle. The CS and WE swords are plastic. The CS’08 correctly conforms to the “India” standard: the back of the handle is flush instead of enlarged. The WE’08 looks like a P’08 ( even though the blade says its an IP’08). The handle compression down to 3.25 inches invalidates the WE. Many first year 1908s had black rubber handles. But the red-brown are more common. The P’12 is black fish skin with a copper wire wrap.
The Guard: I love bell guards. Unlike basket guards there is freedom to give full play to your wrist when cutting. The P’08 has a very thick plate which is further reinforced with a second cover plate at the blade. The India Pattern looks the same but the guard plate is much lightened. The CS’08 once again is correct. The WE plate has been scaled back and lacks the “dish shaped” finish to the guard.
The Pommel: All the 08’s have large caps that are screw-bolted into place. The P’12 is peened.
The Scabbard: The steel two side ringed scabbard was standard. Encasing these in leather was a popular option for line units. Scabbards and Guards were usually painted for field service in WWI. The green khaki was employed initially, but black is quite common. Haven’t had much nice to say for the WE’08. Their scabbard is correct and nice…
Handling Characteristics: While these swords can be made effective light cutters they’re intended to be thrusting swords. I’d be tempted to say that with their wonderful hilts they are the ultimate rapiers.
The large handles make them comfortable and flexible swords.
Conclusions:
[img src="[http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx115/kelly1863/British%20M1908%20and%20M1912/BritishP1908-12CavSaber030.jpg"]
Pros:
Very effective, flashy design
Superior thrusting sword with great balance and ample handle.
The Cold Steel is a correct IP’08 and great deal.
Cons:
Heavy weights.
Threre is no good British Pattern replica.
Not a first choice for “cutters”
The Bottom Line:
The WE’s really disappoint here. They badly need to redesign what they have marketed. This sword misses the mark in too many ways. I’m glad now that they didn’t ship me the requested 1912. The Graf Hadik is a good sword and a welcome addition to my collection. Can’t really say that for the 1908. It is the biggest disappointment of the 8 swords received.
The Cold Steel is a legitimate IP service sword. It can be had for about $200 from Trueswords or KoA.
The P1908s are available in the $600-900 range. They’d be cheaper if the exchange rate wasn’t so bad. P1912 are a bit tougher to find so they tend to be $700-1000. (You can also buy them new as they are still in service with the British Army.)
Too many photos for this review. You can view more here:
s747.photobucket.com/albums/xx115/kelly1863/British%20M1908%20and%20M1912/