Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Jul 10, 2009 15:51:49 GMT
Oakeshott Typologies in Replica Swords Hello all, there was some discussion about doing a thread on typologies in another thread. It didn't look like it was getting done anytime soon though... so I created a dress rehearsal thread.
What I'd like to see happen here is for people to post their swords and mention what Oakeshott type they are most typical of, in what ways they best replicate the type, and in what ways they differ from it.
One may also post sword and ask others for help classifying it... I'm going to do both.
Hopefully , later , someone can take a compilation of photos of the best representatives of the types from this thread, and make a compilation thread.
Full credit for this thread goes to King Rat ... who conceptualized it and brought forth the idea. I just decided to be the one to jump the gun. Hopefully King Rat will be the one who compiles the pictures into a reference thread.Angus Trim 1508 Longsword The 1508 is an interpretation of type XVIIIe , a longsword type prevalent throughout Europe in the 15th and 16th centuries. XVIIIe , as I understand it , is supposed to have a very long narrow ricasso, and the 1508 has only a mildly rebated ricasso , which I prefer , actually. Also , I believe XVIIIe typically had curved crossguards and pear shaped pommels . The 1508 has a bowtie cross, and a scentstopper pommel. It should be noted , however, that this is a performence version of the 1508, and teh orginal had a more pearish pommel. This version was given a diferent pommel to move the POB out an inch, and make it a more authoritative cutter.
Now I ask for feedback on this ... because I've actually seen Gus himself classify this as a XVIIIb... so please... thoughts Unknown Model Angus Trim Riding SwordI don't know what this sword is, and would like help classifying it please. Anyone wanna help?
EDIT: Ok so it looks like this is a XVIII
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2009 17:14:05 GMT
For now, I'll offer my Windlass Verneuil to the list. Oakeshott Type XVIIIa Fish tail pommel and blade are in line with this type, guard is a little off but not something that could be with in reason. One of Windlass' shining moments with this offering, handles grand and cuts fabulously....rather chuffed with it, too bad they dropped it so soon (as they seem to do with most good models) cheers and looking forward to more from other folks, thanks Marc & King Rat for getting the ball rolling. Bill
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Post by ShooterMike on Jul 10, 2009 18:17:28 GMT
Hey Marc, I recognize that 2nd sword. It's the one that started this thread: /index.cgi?board=swordcustom&action=display&thread=1695 The look has changed significantly over the years as I worked it over several times. But it's the same blade and grip core. I would call it a Type XVIII riding sword. I think it looks a lot like Oakeshott's XVIII.7 on page 178 of Records of the Medieval Sword. That sword is part of the Wallace Collection (A.467). Oakshott said it was difficult to date that sword, as similar swords were used throughout the 15th and 16th centuries. Here's an early picture of it with the original curved guard and hardwood grip.
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Jul 10, 2009 18:35:32 GMT
Hey Mike ... I got one from Lee about the same time ... a 1502b it was.... So that makes this a XVIII also.
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Post by ShooterMike on Jul 10, 2009 18:48:30 GMT
Yep, definitely an XVIII. The first paragraph of the Type XVIII description says: This type is the very quintessence of the true, age-old cut and thrust fighting sword; its form and its function goes back to the Middle Bronze Age of c. 1000 BC. Relatively light (its average weight, for its short-hilted version of Type XVIII, is about 2 lbs) with enough breadth at the point of percussion (or as someone in Denmark once put it, the Optimal Striking Point) to deliver a totally effective cut, yet below this the blade tapers sharply to a very acute point, perfectly capable of a very lethal thrust. In nearly every case, too, the section is of a flattened diamond form with a sharp longitudinal mid-rib, making the blade nice and stiff.
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Post by ShooterMike on Jul 10, 2009 18:58:01 GMT
I will jump to the other end of the typology with a pair of Type X swords. They both are very representative of the type. The first is an Albion Reeve. One of Albion's specialties is getting all the details of blade geometry correct. This one pretty much defines the Type X. The second example is very similar. It's a Museum Replicas/Windlass-made sword call the Ulfberht. It is very close, and in this picture mostly looks the part of a Type X. The problem was that when I got it, the portion of the blade forward of the fuller was of a distinct flattened diamond cross section. That was all wrong, so I filed away the prominent mid-rib, though the shape of the cross section is still fairly visible. Given the way swords were hammered out during the period in which this type of blade was prevalent, it would have been nearly impossible to make a blade with such a wide fuller and spatulate point with a prominent flattened diamond cross section. This is probably THE thing that annoys me most about lower end reproduction swords, as it screams "They don't know what they're trying to make!"
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2009 19:30:03 GMT
ATrim Maker's Mark Type XVIa Bastard SwordType XVI is a further attempt to improve the thrusting, and retain the cutting abilty of a blade. The XII and XIV had lenticular cross-section blades with reinforced tips to improve the thrust, but were still primarily cutters. The XV had a reinforced cross-section that made for primarily a thruster that can cut. The Type XVI combined the two types. The upper part of the blade (towards the guard) is the same flat, lenticular cross section with fuller of the type XII. This section gives the sword a cut equal to the XII at the COP. The lower portion (towards the tip) is a flatten diamond section not unlike the XV. This, combined with distinct profile taper, gives the sword excellent thrusting ability. This is an interpretation of a XVIa which is the hand and a half version of the XVI.
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Post by ShooterMike on Jul 10, 2009 20:27:13 GMT
Type XVIs rock IMO. Here's a Type XVI, an Albion Prince. Here's another XVIa, an Albion Crecy.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2009 20:46:28 GMT
We should just call this the ShooterMike show lol
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Post by ShooterMike on Jul 10, 2009 20:59:05 GMT
Sorry, didn't mean to be a hog. I am in the middle of writing an article for Paul on the Oakeshott Typology and it's relation to modern reproduction swords. So I have a lot of photos around that illustrate most of the different types. Though I'm looking for more photos if anyone wants to send some to help me out with getting the article finished (it was due on Jluy 1st). I particularly need pics of Type XV and Type XVII swords.
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Marc Ridgeway
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"The best cost less when you buy it the first time." - Papabear
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Jul 10, 2009 21:16:47 GMT
OK... so, a little help on this one please?
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Post by ShooterMike on Jul 10, 2009 22:17:28 GMT
Marc, that's a Museum Replicas/Windlass German Bastard Sword, right? I believe that would be the same type as the German Bastard Sword from Arms&Armor. I have heard them referred to as a Type XVIII. It seems to me that they best fit in the Type XVIIIc category. But I would call that a "guess" just based on the blade shape and the description of Type XVIIIc: Type XVIIIc Large, hand-and-a-half sword with blade up to 34" (86.36cm)
- Faces of the flattened diamond section may be slightly convex
- Long grip with a pronounced bulge in its middle
- Cross often horizontally S-curved
- Pommel usually of wheel form
These don't have wheel pommels, as they usually seem to date from the late 15th century into the 16th century. But the rest seems correct. Then again... the use fo the complex guards may move them into what Oakeshott called "unclassified" swords. He has a bunch of widely varied swords in the back of Records under this heading. Anyone know more?...
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Marc Ridgeway
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"The best cost less when you buy it the first time." - Papabear
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Jul 10, 2009 22:50:16 GMT
Hey Mike , yeah, it is... but has a hexagonal crossection .
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2009 23:48:41 GMT
The windlass german bastard sword REALLY doesn't fit oakeshott at all. The blade profile looks like a XIII but the forte has a hexagonal cross and the tip has a diamond cross. So I say it goes in the other category.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2009 0:52:23 GMT
Good sirs,
I am looking for a copy of Oakeshott's Records of the Medieval Sword so that I can follow along and participate. I just want everyone to know that I find this thread the most informative one on the forum for someone like me, and I hope that others will contribute as well, and this thread will continue to grow.
I will post my fullered bastard sword as soon as I get a picture of it and can make a guess as to type.
I just visited Arms and Armor in Mpls today and salivated over their rack of newly finished swords. I love learning about these works of art.
Thanks to all for their efforts!
Strider
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2009 13:50:40 GMT
Tinker Pearce's book 'The Medieval Sword in the Modern World' is a very good primer on modern sword design and Oakeshoot Typology. Discussion points on swords that neatly fit a particular type as well as those that do not. I guess some of those would be considered hybrid designs, or modern variations/evolutions of one of the Oakeshott types.
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Marc Ridgeway
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Retired Global Moderator
"The best cost less when you buy it the first time." - Papabear
Posts: 3,122
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Jul 11, 2009 14:18:53 GMT
Good sirs, I am looking for a copy of Oakeshott's Records of the Medieval Sword so that I can follow along and participate. I just want everyone to know that I find this thread the most informative one on the forum for someone like me, and I hope that others will contribute as well, and this thread will continue to grow. I will post my fullered bastard sword as soon as I get a picture of it and can make a guess as to type. I just visited Arms and Armor in Mpls today and salivated over their rack of newly finished swords. I love learning about these works of art. Thanks to all for their efforts! Strider here are some quick references... www.oakeshott.org/Typo.htmlwww.myarmoury.com/feature_oakeshott.html
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Post by hotspur on Jul 11, 2009 17:15:31 GMT
I know that Records is the most popular title of Oakeshott's books (and my first book buy for swords) but the information is widely distributed through articles such as the myArmoury and dot org features. I backtracked from Records and picked up his first title The Archaeology of Weapons: Arms and Armour from Prehistory to the Age of Chivalry Widely distributed and cost is minimal ($12 paperback). It contains all the basics of typologies, including guards and pommels. Both myArmoury and SFI reviews are available, as well as overviews of book titles. There is a huge list of bibliography via myArmoury. All of Oakeshott's future medieval titles are based on his first book with amendments found in later editions of the archaeology title. The first written, is the best value in my opinion. Chad of myArmoury is setting up to offer hardbound aftermarket editions of Records but some sluething will come up with some of the paperbacks around, both used and new. I did pay for a hardcover around 2000 and it was in great shape but pricy at about $110 shipped. The paperback of Records still commands a pretty hefty price, even once found.
Library loaning as well has gained in leaps and bounds.
Trust me, $12 or so for the first Archaeologytitle is a bargain and a good place to start.
Cheers
Hotspur; I lack quite a few of the line up and have more XVIII variants than anything else except much later spadroons
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Post by YlliwCir on Jul 11, 2009 17:42:08 GMT
Albion Poitiers - Oakeshott Type XV. It has what I interpet as a Type I guard and Type 7 guard, consistant with the Type XV. Overall length: 37.31" (94.77 cm) Blade length: 30.625" (77.79 cm) Blade width: 2.19" (5.56 cm) Throughout the course of the 13th century, more and more steel-plate reinforcements were added to the knight's defenses. The development of this plate armour presumably caused the introduction of swords designed more specifically for thrusting over the cut. Such thrusting weapons were intended to combat the increased weight and protection of the knight's armour by providing a means to find and penetrate the openings between plates and defeat the mail worn underneath.
Ewart Oakeshott dubbed one such weapon the Type XV and defined it as having a strongly tapered blade profile with an acute point and a flattened diamond cross-section. This specialized sword type had edges with straight lines that lacked the noticeable curves seen on previous blade styles. The design is purely a single-hand variety, having a medium length grip of about four inches long.
Evidence shows that Type XVs may have appeared as early as the second half of the 13th century, developing alongside and in response to the advancements of armour. The beginning of the 14th century saw sword design evolve to balance thrusting ability with the cutting designs of earlier years. The Type XV didn't seem to see its full development and widespread use until the end of this transitional period during the middle of the century.
Text from " Spotlight: Oakeshott Type XV Swords" an article by Nathan Robinson on myArmoury.com.
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