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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2009 6:57:58 GMT
I've recently taken up blacksmithing, and am apprenticing under a knifesmith who is unfortunately a bit too specialized to be absolutely sure on a few points for larger projects. I figured who better to ask then people who have actually tried out many different blades.
I was hoping to get some insight as to if I should use a different grade of steel for european long blades, likewise, should I be using anything different for flatter curved blades, like scimitars? For anyone knowledgable in blacksmithing, are there any tricks I should be aware of?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2009 12:40:59 GMT
As long as it's not stainless steel, you should be fine. A proper heat treatment is more important than any of that. Check out the blacksmith's cafe on SFI ( forums.swordforum.com). Lurk as much as you can; it is never enough. Also, there's Kevin Cashen's site, cashenblades.com. I'm really paying attention to anything that this man has to say. He approaches it completely scientifically. Overall, though, I think that if you treat the steel properly throughout the whole process, you'll end up with something good.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Apr 30, 2009 13:29:50 GMT
We also have a wealth of information here too, and you'd get more response probably, at our Swordmakers Forums: /index.cgi?board=swordmaking You'd do well to browse through the old pages. Another ripper for smiths is Don Foggs Forums: forums.dfoggknives.com/index.php?There's also Anvil fire: www.anvilfire.com/It'll amuse most to read their advice to wannabe swordsmiths (scroll down to Sword making): www.anvilfire.com/FAQs/Also btw (re steel?): Different steel to what? What have you been using? But yeah, as long as it's not stainless, and has a carbon content over 60 (0.60% C as indicated by the last two digits in the type)you wont go wrong. Obviously each type of steel has it's own heat treating protocols to follow for the best outcomes. Do expect a lot of failure and a slow learning curve if you insist on forging blades. It takes a lot of practice to get good at, so they say. I stock remove. Much faster learning curve. Much easier...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2009 14:01:09 GMT
Bren O does stock removal- did not know that. Let me ask you- as far as performance goes, is there a large difference between a hand forged vs stock removal blade?
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Post by Matt993f.o.d on Apr 30, 2009 16:12:48 GMT
That old chestnut. Blade geometry and heat treatment are ALWAYS more important than steel type and shaping method. Stock removal and forging are just two ways to achieve the same thing.
As for a steel type for swords, I will stick my neck out, and argue that you cannot get much better than 5160. It offers the best all around compromise for performance in long blades where shock resistance and flexibility is important. I will say it again though, heat treatment must be done 100% perfectly for any steel to perform correctly.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2009 22:51:40 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2009 23:37:18 GMT
As for a steel type for swords, I will stick my neck out, and argue that you cannot get much better than 5160. It offers the best all around compromise for performance in long blades where shock resistance and flexibility is important. I will say it again though, heat treatment must be done 100% perfectly for any steel to perform correctly. Careful sticking that neck out , no just kidding stick away. I and anyone with any sense should refrain from starting to name "the best" as far as steel is considered, it's too much of a definite answer. L6 blows 5160 out of the water when it comes to impact resistance, as to flexibility, that is more based on geometry than anything else. As to the forging VS stock removal, the process of forging has more of a chance of harming the steel than stock removal, so unless the forging process is done properly you will end up with a worse blade THAT IS considering everything else was the same in a perfect world. Stock removal is a safer, more sure fire easier to get the hang of way to get to a finished product, forging takes alot more involvement, equipment and skill, and when I say skill that only pertains to the forging part, as stock removal takes quite a bit of skill as well, but when you forge you have to know how to forge as well as grind the finished blade, stock removal you just have to know how to layout the blade and grind it. Either process used, when done properly, will end up with the same excellent sword. But, Last time I checked you couldn't touch a couple pieces of steel to a grinder and turn it into damascus . Good advice that is commonly given is to pick one steel and learn the ins and outs of it really well. My personal choice for long blades of any type or style is 1077. It will through harden when done properly, and will also show a nice hamon when the situation calls for it.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2009 0:35:38 GMT
Do you really think there's a definite answer? Perhaps for certain qualities...
If that were the case, truck springs would have to be shaped like swords, wouldn't they? No, this property is determined by the steel and the heat treat. And anyway, the bendier the blade, the more lacking in it's edge retention ability, right? Perhaps less so in spring steels, but the principle holds true that I wouldn't go for maximum bendiness.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on May 1, 2009 1:18:12 GMT
Well flexibility is obviously a function of all three: HT, Steel type, and geometry, but Sam is pointing out that Geometry is an extreme contributing factor to flex.
Geometry: If you take 2 x one metre length of steel, 3mm thick, and 50mm wide overall with the geometry being different: one piece is a flatbar, and the other piece is angle, then obviously the geometry is going to make a massive difference to it's flexibilty. It doesn't matter if the flat bar is 1060 hardened and tempered to a very 'unflexible' 60Rc, while the angle iron is just soft mild steel, I'll wager the flatbar is still more flexible.
This is an extreme example, but more subtle examples play out in sword geometry.
And yeah Steve you're right, Tinker and Gus have written some very generous and enlightning articles over there at SFI.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2009 2:03:41 GMT
Ok, good point. I see what you mean.
There's still so much to read about making blades. It's like jumping into the ocean, and I'm still in a tide pool. I've been pouring over metallurgy, I haven't gotten to anything about how geometry affects things. I'll keep this in mind. Thanks. You're quite an inspiration, Bren, and proof that anyone can do this.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2009 23:27:50 GMT
If that were the case, truck springs would have to be shaped like swords, wouldn't they? No, this property is determined by the steel and the heat treat. And anyway, the bendier the blade, the more lacking in it's edge retention ability, right? Perhaps less so in spring steels, but the principle holds true that I wouldn't go for maximum bendiness. No, because truck springs have to be more ridgid than swords hence why they are thicker. Bendier the blade, yes, because for the blade to be "bendier" it would have to be tempered to less hardness so it wouldn't snap, but not so much that it will flex and stay bent. Steel has nothing to do with it almost, you can heat treat almost any steel to flex like a spring and not just bend or snap. Spring steel is a blanket term for a soft tempered steel meant more to flex without bending instead of hold an edge. Tempering does exactly that, it trades one for the other hardness/edge holding for toughness/bending resistance, neither has anything to do with HOW the sword flexes, only the shape of the steel can do that. But no, don't take it from me, maybe take it from Tim Zowada who taught me this: Flex videoStress/Strain ChartConclusionfixed videos.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2009 23:48:05 GMT
Do you really think there's a definite answer? Perhaps for certain qualities... No, if it was unclear I meant there is really NO definitive answer, there is no perfect steel for swords, many are perfect for swords.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2009 9:50:57 GMT
So is 9260 all hype?
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2009 12:58:09 GMT
No. With a steel like 9260, the alloying content moves that yield point on Tim's Zowada's chart farther to the right, which means it will take more force to permanently deform or make it fail completely. Every steel, will have a set point along that arch line depending on carbon content, and alloys involved.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2009 13:46:28 GMT
I think I'm getting this. Every steel has roughly the same toughness potential in a blade. Some have advantages. There is a balance of influences among steel, treatment, and blade geometry.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2009 14:26:00 GMT
Some steels have a higher potential for toughness than others, but toughness is a trade off for edge holding. There is a specific point of equality for each steel, where edge holding/hardness and toughness/ability to resist bending meet and cross lines on a chart, after that if you continue to temper to higher temperatures it will get tougher but will start seriously losing edge holding ability, and vice versa if you don't temper high enough, you won't get much of any toughness. It is very much a balance, and there are many many MANY MANY factors involved, including as I said alloying elements, carbon content, and grain structure. Shape is an interesting factor though in that, if you have a nice properly distal tapered sword blank un heat treated, it will be easier to deform in that state then just a blank piece of uniform flat bar. Heat treated however, the thinner tapered sword will be able to flex more out of original shape than the flat bar of steel. Think a piece of flat bar 1/4 thick by 1 inch wide and a tape measure, you can take the tape measure and in fact roll it up into a roll, but try that with the crowbar and you will not get very far hehe. Hence why geometry effects HOW a blade flexes, heat treat effects how much it can flex before permanently deforming.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2009 17:00:28 GMT
Thank you, I think I really get it now.
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