Marc Ridgeway
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"The best cost less when you buy it the first time." - Papabear
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Jan 6, 2007 21:19:19 GMT
Today was another beautiful , sunny , 70 degree day in GA;so I took the opportunity to do some cutting. The sword was a new Kiyomaro from Oni Forge. I know that the Kiyomaro is a little over $300, but Loren sells seconds for $299 which fits in it. I have owned 5 Oni seconds, and it's hard to tell what is wrong with them. Some folks on SFI wanted a comparison to the W&T so that is what I've done I ordered the 32-14 configuration, and the sword dwarfs my Wind and Thunder, a bruiser in it's own right. The kake is homemade so please refrain from reviewing it too harshly..I'm no craftsman;) Here's the specs on the blades Kiyomaro Nagasa 32 in. Tsuka 14 in. Sori: 7/8 in. Moto-Haba: 1 3/8 in. Saki-Haba: 1 1/16 in. Moto-Kasane: 5/16 in. Saki-Kasane: 4/16 in. weight : 3.3 lbs Wind and Thunder Nagassa 29.75 Motohaba 1.4" motokasane around 7 mm saki kasane 5.5-6mm kissaki 3.4 inches weight 3lbs 5 ounces. sori .6 inch. tsuka 11.75 inches The Oni blade is actually just 2 tenths of an ounce lighter that the Wind and Thunder, despite being considerably longer. The Kiyomaro also has considerably more sori, and the tsuka follows the sori much better than the W&T AestheticsAesthetically , the W&T has the edge in a couple of catagories: the hardware,polish and kissaki. The hardware on the Oni is actually pretty nice,there's only a slight edge for the W&T there.The maki on the Oni is tighter and better shaped, even though the W&T has slightly superior ito. Polish wise, the Hanwei has a better hybrid polish. The Kiyomaro has what would be a knockout hamon,but does not show it off at all. The Kiyomaro would have the edge in the kissaki dept, as i think the shaping is better, but the W&T features an actual yokote whereas the Kiyomaro is counter polished. Here you can just make out the hamon on the Kiyomaro
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Marc Ridgeway
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"The best cost less when you buy it the first time." - Papabear
Posts: 3,122
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Jan 6, 2007 21:20:13 GMT
The Oni has the 8 circles tsuba on it, which I think is elegant,but possibly a little small and light for the sword.The fuchi-gashira are stone textured and the menuki are silver waves. Overall presentation goes to the Oni, despite the slight edge in some catagories by the W&T. In the end , the sugata, sori and tsuka shaping combine to make the Kiyomaro more eyepleasing to this reviewer. Handling Characteristics Surprisingly, the Kiyomaro handles like a much smaller sword.The balance point is 6 inches from the tsuba,compared to 6.5 for the W&T. The W&T handles ok, but feels much more tip heavy and awkward.The Kiyomaro feels much lighter , despite the fact that it is not. Changes of direction are effortless, and the Kiyomaro does not require adjustments to the tosen,like the W&T did when I first got it.Picking it up and swinging it, the Kiyomaro feels like any other lighter ,well balanced katana. It is , however , a workout for the forearms. The seeming weightlessness is an illusion of the excellent balance. Picking up it's little brother,the tonbo,after swinging this sword is like holding a feather. The shaping of the Wind and Thunder tsuka is more pleasing to the hand,but the contour and angle of the Kiyomaro wins out. All in all this monstorous sword handles very well...as good as most lighter katana in the pricerange, though the forearms do tire quickly. Cutting This Kiyomaro is a laser!!! As stated earlier ,the wind and thunder's weight causes me to have to make tosen adjustments... the first cut with the Kiyomaro sliced an empty 20 ouncer in two, lightly dropping the top to the ground,and leaving the bottom capsized on the cutting stand. The tracking on cuts is first rate.I was able to quickly and evenly picklechip some milk jugs, though I didn't come close to Restita's record:o I did not cut any Bamboo today, but am sure the Kiyomaro would have no problem with 2-3 inch bamboo. I think the W&T has the advantage on larger bamboo stalks and mat rolls. They cut equally well on medium targets, but the Kiyomaro cuts light targets MUCH better. Conclusion As an everyday working sword, the Kiyomaro beats the W&T hands down. It's cutting and handling characteristicsare far superior to the W&T. While on close up inspection the W&T presents itself better(polish kissaki , hardware) back away 5 feet and the sugata and sori of the Kiyomaro edge it out. While I won't be selling my W&T, I do really like the Kiyomaro...this swords a winner. Thanks for reading!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2007 9:56:21 GMT
Very nice sword . I really think the Oni looks the nicer sword. I don't know if its the curve in the blade or maybe it's the length ?! It makes the W&T look a bit like a fantasy/ninja sword in comparison. I don't think I'm the only one of this opinion ! Nice work.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2007 19:37:39 GMT
marc, have you ever owned an oni 2nd with "loose wrap"?
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Marc Ridgeway
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"The best cost less when you buy it the first time." - Papabear
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on May 15, 2007 3:13:04 GMT
no, I've owned a couple of seconds, but none of the loose wraps...but the seconds are usually pretty nice
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2007 4:25:13 GMT
nice review, how much did the kiyomaru cost?
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Post by randomnobody on May 16, 2007 2:23:08 GMT
I must say, the Kiyomaro is a beatiful sword. In fact, the primary reason I signed up for an account was so I could ask a few questions about it. I see that my primary inquiry has already been addressed, though. I was curious about what Oni Forge clasisifies as a "loose wrap."
I already own three moderate-quality katana, my first (naturally) being good ol' Hanwei/Paul Chen Practical, which has developed what I would call a "loose wrap" over my three years of thorough abuse, but not so much as to affect my grip. The other two are uknown pieces I bought from various gun shows in Richmond (I live in Virginia, US), one of which being a "damascus" model I picked up for $250 from...some guy...bearing a hefty, 14-inch tsuka (which was the primary reason I purchased the sword, plus a curiousity to the pattern-welded blade quality), which also suffers from a sliding ito now. Then some random little musashi-style tsuba...thing, which I've disassembled to find what appears to be a small bit of paper bearing what could be a smith or forge name, but I can't read it, due to language barriers.
Whoops, ranting, sorry about that. Anyway, to my primary point, even if the wrap is excessively poor, would you say the sword itself is worth the $275 Oni charges for their Kiyomaro seconds? I've actually rewrapped one of my old "SLO's," as forum members seem to enjoy calling them, in a leather banding I bought at...Wal Mart...anyway, the actual wrapping process, I didn't follow "traditionally," even "correctly," but I got the overlapping, folding, alignment, and end knot all pretty well perfect, save for having cut off too much, granting it a tendency to try to unravel. A friend of mine insisted on fixing this with good old super glue. I've since used this sword to bash trees, etc., but nothing else more. My wrap hasn't shifted at all, so I assume it's good enough.
I'd love to own this sword, but I want to know if it's REALLY worth it (I'm sure it is, I'm just a tightwad when it comes to individual items over $75...)
Thanks for your patience in reading this, I hope nothing new's been posted since I started typing. Boy, what a hell of an impression to make. I'll shut up now, I promise.
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Post by rammstein on May 16, 2007 2:29:03 GMT
Hey er... randomnobody ;D! (why do I feel like this is going the route of odysseus in the odessy... ;D) Oni forge makes some very top notch swords. I don't know any specifics but from what I can see, if you like it, go for it! You probably won't have any issues with quality if you buy from them
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Post by randomnobody on May 16, 2007 2:40:57 GMT
...wow, that was fast. Sorry, name is something I came up with spur-of-the-moment nearly four years ago and has rather stuck with me since. There's a fanciful story behind it all, but I'll spare you. I do like the looks of this sword very much, especially its size. I'm a fair 6'2"-6'4", depending who you ask, and can always appreciate a bigger sword. I've been collecting blades in one form or another since I was...I guess 12 was my first real dive in. I'm 22 now, for reference. I've accumulated several fancy display pieces, but gave up on them around 19, in favor of my Practical. Then onto those other two, and recently the Marshall and Godfred swords have been added. I know these two have received mixed reviews from the general sword-buying public, but they suit me just fine. I don't think I'll be assaulting any forests or automobiles with them any time soon, so they SHOULDN'T be breaking quite like the rest. Back to the sword at hand here, I've been watching this thread for about a week now, and each time I come back to it I'm more than tempted to run over and buy one. Lucky for me, I have a habit of checking my bank account first. Good thing, I'd be so deep in debt right now for all the swords (particularly those from Oni Forge (that double-edge is gorgeous)), and have nowhere near that kind of money at present. I have other hobbies that are tying me up right now, what with the nearly-$1,000 worth of...anime....merchandise...I have on pre-order from various locations... Really, I like swords better. I swear. I've also been around this place enough to learn that you're a highly-respected member, Rammstein, and that your opinion is appropriately valued. Thus, I shall be taking your support of this particular forge into consideration when I make my next purchase. Right now I'm torn between the Kiyomaro, and two Hanweis, the hand-and-a-half/Albrecht II, and the Cromwell. It'd be an easier decision if they weren't all roughly the same price, which is still so far out of my current range. ONE OF THESE DAYS!! (Thanks again)
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2007 2:47:31 GMT
best of luck dealing with Oni, I paid for a sword nearly 3 weeks ago and cannot get them to reply as to when/if/how its being sent. They seem to have the"we have your money now we dont need to communicate with you" virus.
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Post by randomnobody on May 16, 2007 2:56:48 GMT
Lovely. I recently had a similar problem to yours, Ronin, dealing with Ravenswood leather. Took them a month to ship me the frog I ordered to fit my then-brand-new Hanwei Marshall. They charged my account in three days, and never said a word to me. I sent them a rather irritated email demanding an explanation, and the package was (coincidentally) delivered (or would have been, were anybody home) the next day. They tried to remind me that the item of course had to be made first. Obviously. I reminded them they could have at least updated me to its manufacturing status, but what can you expect? These guys are busy, after all, making their customers the very best product they can et cetera pretty business words go here.
Must know, however, whether this is common with Oni Forge, or if poor Ronin has hit a bout of bad luck?
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2007 3:05:00 GMT
don't listen to ramm. he doesn't even like japanese swords.
i jest, i jest.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2007 3:05:54 GMT
seems like a few people on sfi are having problems with oni right now. the owner had a pretty solid reputation until recently, i believe.
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Post by randomnobody on May 16, 2007 3:13:22 GMT
That's rather odd. Perhaps they're enduring some level of staff-based turmoil, or maybe they've just taken in an excessive level of orders lately. Maybe I'll wait a bit longer, just to see how things turn...
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Marc Ridgeway
Member
Retired Global Moderator
"The best cost less when you buy it the first time." - Papabear
Posts: 3,122
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on May 16, 2007 12:19:15 GMT
Yes, the seconds are worth the money.
I have just recieved a shobu from Oni , which I'll be reviewing shortly, so Loren is shipping swords. In all the 30 something swords I've bought from Loren, I have never gotten a tracking number,nor had him hold my hand through the shipping process, but the swords always came...sometimes in a week, sometimes in 6 weeks.
For all the grunting and grumbling, we still aren't dealing with a Last Legend situation, where people have been waiting 2 years, or DGuerntin, where you wait two years if you ever get anything, or even Bugei, where waits can be up to a year...
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2007 13:26:04 GMT
Having been thru the Gurtin disaster is the main reason I demand contact after the money has been paid,I simply do not accept a "I'm too busy to reply to your email" line. Thats pure bullsemprini,you had the time to take my money, if you cant answer a customers simple question then get out of business. A business makes a profit for offering a service, if they dont give that service what have they done to earn the money? I'm not asking anyone to hold my hand, I just want to know when I can expect my sword so someone can be home to receive it,if thats too much to ask I hold no hope for his business. PS I've been in retail for over 30yrs so I think I can talk about customer service.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2007 13:35:05 GMT
Bah ramm carrying weight, tch tch look out it will go to his head. j/k However he doesn't even like japanese swords, well i will second that for the time being. He knows lots about european swords but not a whole hell of alot about japanese swords. Don't mind me just deflating his ego before it becomes to swollen and he can't fit in the door, after all we wouldn't want to be deprived of his wealth of encyclopaedic knowledge. Again j/k
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Post by rammstein on May 16, 2007 19:21:07 GMT
lol bloodwraith ;D
If I wasn't busy laughing I'd smite you ;D ;D ;D (karma for funnyness...ness.)
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Post by randomnobody on May 16, 2007 22:31:48 GMT
Sure, I've noted Rammstein's views on katana, but I'm sure he's done his research to gain this view. Right? ...right?
At any rate, anybody who's been around longer than I have obviously knows more than I do, thus if somebody such as Rammstein, or any of this board's other senior members, should express some level of faith in a company, then I feel a little more like I can trust said company myself. Again, even though one may not like a certain type of sword, doesn't mean they don't know anything about it, or those who make and sell them.
I'm going on faith, here, that Rammstein isn't toying with the new kid for his own evil pleasures.
I do agree with ronin. I've only worked retail for a total of just over three years, but I pride myself more on my customer service than anything else. If a customer wants something that we don't have in stock, I'll do my best to find it first, I won't let them leave the store without at least some general idea of when that item will be available to them. Of course, in my store, inventory shipments are rather out of my hands, the computers run it all. I can add on special things if I want to, but even then the chances of backorder are present.
I'm perfectly content to sit and wait for something that has been deemed worth it. Heck, when I bought my Godfred from By the Sword, I first emailed them for more information, and in doing so learned they were on a lengthy backorder, likely there wouldn't be any in stock for 5-7 weeks. Fine with me, their guy helped me out more than any other service personnel I've ever encountered, so naturally they had my order. Sword was in my hands two weeks later. Guess I got lucky.
As far as having paid, then having to wait, I'm not fond of paying for anything until I know it's shipped, or have already received it. But I do understand that sometimes, materials must first be purchased, et cetera, thus the company is, in my own mind, perfectly in thier right to charge me first. I certainly wouldn't take the financial hit on my own first, then be compensated later. I'd quite appreciate a customer giving me the money I need to get their item ready for them. Of course, I'd also keep them updated as to production time, expected ship date, and would only ship by trackable methods that I would share with them.
What an ideal world I live in, eh?
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Post by rammstein on May 16, 2007 23:26:30 GMT
Random, my only experience is from marcs reviews, all of which have been pretty comlimentory of oniforge. And I for one, really like the look of several of the katanas, so that debunks people's notions that I "don't like" them. They aren't my thing, but that doesn't mean I don't respect them for the lethal and amazing weapons that they are. And every once in a while, I see a katana that I really like. So far there have been 3 of them: The bamboo, the zetsurin, and the sgc yamakami. Another thing: My "research" is based on perception which could be either cold hard fact or wanton myth or a combination of both. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me, but I'm going to point out WHY I believe I'm right. And if I'm wrong hey, I put up a good debate and learned something new On the subject of being a respected member: I think we are all respected members here. I just probably appear to have more weight because of the fact that I've been here for a comparatively long time and I have the most posts - neither of which show that I have any actual meat to my opinions or any thoughts that would be considered momentous enough to provoke a very high level of thought. I AM however usually involved in just about every debate we've ever had and I'm sure that's gained my a fair bit of notoriety/praise from people, though it's rather undeserved. As yu've probably seen, my passion is deeply rooted in European history, not japan, and therefore expect my comments to be more on the naive side when discussiing this area. I'm more than happy to help out in any way that I can (as always ;D), but I am certainly not an expert in any field, especially japan. If you want some really juicy info on this subject, talk to people like Chopchop, ronin, and marc - the people I personally associate with being the "experts" of the sbg sword forum, at least for japanese history.
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